fuckin' hell guys, great fucking post. I can't put enough expletives in that last sentence to express my joy in reading this.
Cheers and thanks. J-
Debauchasaurus Ben
· 4 months ago
The only writing workshops I did in college were poetry, and really I think that those are absolutely excellent. It was stated well, that beginning writers can't give the most concise (or even accurate) advice. Because of that, only the professor commented in the intro workshop -- she opened it up to classmate comments in the advanced workshop.
The nature of the workshops was the same as that Iowa piranha pool idea. Everyone turned in 1 poem, the prof ordered them from best to worst, then went down the list and explained why. True, she was brutal, but that desire to improve and write cleanly (which TREMENDOUSLY applies to prose) was very compelling.
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
. . .ouch! the teacher rated them "best to worst?" . . . how subjective is that?
. . . and jarred, glad you got something out of this rambling conversation of ours!
Debauchasaurus Ben
· 4 months ago
Actually, this poetry professor was a completely amazing gray-haired 60 year old battle-axe of a woman. She was VERY objective, and would always thoroughly explain her poetic disembowelings.
JoeW
· 4 months ago
Well, I'm a 52-year-old whose first novel will be published in the spring, so I can attest to the fact that lots and LOTS of practice can help you improve! (I've written many nonfiction books, but those are a different animal, I think.)
Anyway, I've never taken a writing class or been in a workshop. I have a couple of extremely talented readers and an agent I trust, and that's it.
On the other hand, I work as a writing mentor for students in the local high school. I believe I help them become better writers, but what I think I mostly do is tell them to take risks, to set themselves free, and to understand that their love of creative writing has value.
Ale
· 4 months ago
Writing can be taught. One learns how to express and everything about grammar mistakes,the construction of sentences,the use of prepositions and all that. Everyone can always improve his writing. Both interest and dedication are enough to get through. However,there is very little to help when you are not gifted. That's one of the most impressive features of creation. Excellent post! Thanks for sharing!
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
so, joe, this:
"tell them to take risks, to set themselves free, to understand that their love of creative writing has value."
. . . is great advice . . . when writers ask my advice, i tell them to work obsessively for years and years, and if it feels like work, they're probably not cut out for it . . .also, i always remind them about not quitting their day job, and to be grateful they can write at all . . .
Suzanne
· 4 months ago
I believe this is the best essay /conversation I've read on this topic. It is very tempting when my writing is not going well to consider that a MFA would solve all my problems and lead quickly to published stardom...or at least being published. It's also reassurring to hear that while that feedback would be useful, the bottom line is reading, writing, and a whole lot more of both.
Thank you for the obvious thought and time that went into this post. Great work!
Tobias
· 4 months ago
Talk of burying a novel makes me wonder: how do you know when it's time to do that and move on? (I realize that this is probably not quantifiable, but thought it was worth asking regardless.)
JC
· 4 months ago
I don't know, Tobias, but something tells me that if you are wondering whether to bury it, you probably already know what to do.
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
. .. when in doubt, bury it! . . . i'm here to tell you that the act is cathartic!
JoeW
· 4 months ago
Thanks, Jonathan...love this post.
The other great evolution I've seen over the years is that the Net has brought my students together with others who share their enthusiasm. They stumble in to see me after school and say things like, "I didn't sleep too much last night--I was sharing a story at two A.M. with my writer friends online."
When I was a teenager, I didn't have that kind of support. Writing was entirely solitary. The support my students get from others their age is great to see.
Jason Rice
· 4 months ago
Tobias, when to bury a book? I've buried six, they rest alone in the garden. I knew I was done with it when I'd rather vomit on my shoes than look at the book. -jr
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
joe, i'll be honest, until lulu was published, i had no support whatsoever . . . my writing and reading life was insular . . . it wasn't until i started meeting other writers and readers in droves (mostly online) that i had any kind of support system . . . in some ways, i think insularity is important to a young writer in terms of the development of voice-- it is a better environment than group-think for breeding true originality . . . music history in particular is rife with self-taught visionaries-- er, satchmo, anyone?
Tobias
· 4 months ago
Ayuh. I've already buried one myself, and my feelings towards this one are significantly different -- it's difficult to tell whether this theoretical burying is a necessary action or something that's ultimately me working against myself. I appreciate the input...
Jason Rice
· 4 months ago
Every writer I've ever talked to says the same thing..."are you done with the book? Okay, good, write another one." The best medicine is to write...
DH
· 4 months ago
I relate to what Joe said about getting support. This blog started when I said to JR: "Let's do a blog." JR came up with the name. When it came time to do my first interview I said to JR: "I've never done this. I don't know if I can." But JR said: "You can do it." ...and I just believed him.
So it helps to have someone in your corner...though you have to want it yourself.
JoeW
· 4 months ago
Jonathan, you make good points. But I do think that with all the time demands and distractions (many more than when I was a teenager), the sense of community helps keep some of these writers going.
On the other hand, the most talented and dedicated of my students are just as solitary as I used to be, so some things don't change.
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
. . . see, here's the thing, joe: i don;t think any real writer at the end of the day should NEED ANYTHING BUT THE PROCESS OF WRITING ITSELF to keep him going, though i totally relate to the sense of fellowship i feel with these authors and readers . . . to keep going is the whole point, and the only ones who will make it anywhere near the finish are the ones that can survive with NO EXTERNAL VALIDATION WHATSOEVER . . .faulkner once said something to the effect that he was faulkner because he didn't quit . . . the people that ultimately break through are the one's who have no choice but to keep going . . . you gotta' pretty much be willing to starve your family because writers have to be selfish fucks with their time and emotions. . .
Patrick T. Kilgallon
· 4 months ago
I do admit to being insecured enough to seek external validation when it comes to my first book. I always feel motivated to the point of getting up at 5:00 a.m. to drive three hours to a book festival and stand there for eight hours and be looked at as one of the many writers out there. I mean it is a great pleasure when you find a reader willing to part with his or her money and time to read your work that you could almost forgive that person for anything, even if he or she is Pol Pot, and squeezes newborn puppies by the fistful hard enough for them to poop or die of rupture for laughs. It's all because you manage to find another reader who validates the efforts in your favorite job in life.
Jason Rice
· 4 months ago
Starvation works in theory, and we can all sit around and dream of the "remember the days when we had it tough!" Which is why I have a day job. I'm a realist...the "do whatever you have to do to write..." can be done while holding down a job...it just means more discipline on your part.
Anonymous
· 4 months ago
I don't get what's so funny about a first person account of rigor mortis setting in. Are we gonna bitch about the dead guy's voiceover in Sunset Boulevard next?
Jason Chambers
· 4 months ago
Anon, I think it's funny, along the lines of Norman Mailer's first person account of being mummified in Ancient Evenings.
DH
· 4 months ago
Ha! So we are finally getting around to "rigor mortis setting in" in first person. I feel that way right now. In Pamuk's wonderful "My Name is Red" a character is done in and thrown down a well. But his corpse still has plenty to say. Also, there is a talking dog in a picture within the novel and a father-in-law who attends a wedding as a cadaver because his consent was required for the nuptials so his family couldn't admit that he was dead.
I have attended parties while dead. But writers can do anything they want if they are in control. Making the difficult look easy, the hallmark of classical art, that's what I love. I've found it it Pamuk...and other writers that I love.
jonathan evison
· 4 months ago
. . .ah, i see, i read the rigor mortis reference as the writer not knowing what rigor mortis is-- that was the idea, no?
DH
· 4 months ago
I read the rigor mortis joke (from Joshua Henkin) as the student writer not getting what first person is...that you can't be writing...and dead...at the same time!
If the writer is in control, then it's art. If the writer doesn't know what the fuck they are doing, then the joke is on them.
But even that has to be qualified. If a writer has honed their craft like a samurai, like JE has talked about, then they can do things on instinct that are brilliant and unconventional. Maybe that's part of what JR was talking about when he stressed the importance of originality in art.
Jason Chambers
· 4 months ago
That's funny, because I thought of the first person rigor mortis concept as a writer trying something that is ballsy and on its face batshit insane, but which, if it can be pulled off, and if they are good enough, can look brilliant. If not, of course, it's a laughable train wreck.
Emily St. John Mandel
· 4 months ago
I liked this post. I've never taken a writing class or a workshop, and I've always been curious about the idea of teaching creative writing -- I assume it can be taught in the same way that music can be taught (i.e., you can impart the technique to your students, but technical ability won't get you that far unless there's a certain amount of talent behind it.)
Writing's always been a pretty solitary endeavour for me. I didn't start talking to other writers til I started joining social networking sites in the lead-up to the publication of my first novel. I like being in touch with other writers, and great reviews make my day, but I do subscribe to the idea that the act of writing in and of itself should be sufficient to keep the writer going. I like to think that I'd keep writing novel after novel after novel even if no one wanted to publish them.
All Comments
Cheers and thanks. J-
The nature of the workshops was the same as that Iowa piranha pool idea. Everyone turned in 1 poem, the prof ordered them from best to worst, then went down the list and explained why. True, she was brutal, but that desire to improve and write cleanly (which TREMENDOUSLY applies to prose) was very compelling.
. . . and jarred, glad you got something out of this rambling conversation of ours!
Anyway, I've never taken a writing class or been in a workshop. I have a couple of extremely talented readers and an agent I trust, and that's it.
On the other hand, I work as a writing mentor for students in the local high school. I believe I help them become better writers, but what I think I mostly do is tell them to take risks, to set themselves free, and to understand that their love of creative writing has value.
Excellent post!
Thanks for sharing!
"tell them to take risks, to set themselves free, to understand that their love of creative writing has value."
. . . is great advice . . . when writers ask my advice, i tell them to work obsessively for years and years, and if it feels like work, they're probably not cut out for it . . .also, i always remind them about not quitting their day job, and to be grateful they can write at all . . .
Thank you for the obvious thought and time that went into this post. Great work!
The other great evolution I've seen over the years is that the Net has brought my students together with others who share their enthusiasm. They stumble in to see me after school and say things like, "I didn't sleep too much last night--I was sharing a story at two A.M. with my writer friends online."
When I was a teenager, I didn't have that kind of support. Writing was entirely solitary. The support my students get from others their age is great to see.
So it helps to have someone in your corner...though you have to want it yourself.
On the other hand, the most talented and dedicated of my students are just as solitary as I used to be, so some things don't change.
I think it's funny, along the lines of Norman Mailer's first person account of being mummified in Ancient Evenings.
I have attended parties while dead.
But writers can do anything they want if they are in control. Making the difficult look easy, the hallmark of classical art, that's what I love. I've found it it Pamuk...and other writers that I love.
If the writer is in control, then it's art. If the writer doesn't know what the fuck they are doing, then the joke is on them.
But even that has to be qualified. If a writer has honed their craft like a samurai, like JE has talked about, then they can do things on instinct that are brilliant and unconventional. Maybe that's part of what JR was talking about when he stressed the importance of originality in art.
Writing's always been a pretty solitary endeavour for me. I didn't start talking to other writers til I started joining social networking sites in the lead-up to the publication of my first novel. I like being in touch with other writers, and great reviews make my day, but I do subscribe to the idea that the act of writing in and of itself should be sufficient to keep the writer going. I like to think that I'd keep writing novel after novel after novel even if no one wanted to publish them.